tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post8234270898754855923..comments2024-03-28T07:16:39.621+00:00Comments on Lallands Peat Worrier: Abortion: A conscience about conscience?Lallands Peat Worrierhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18276270498204697708noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-32500703346152794892012-03-19T16:28:23.203+00:002012-03-19T16:28:23.203+00:00I support the right of doctors and nurses to refus...I support the right of doctors and nurses to refuse to participate in the clinical procedures of abortion - though I'd hope that a medical professional with an issue about abortion would be conscientious enough to recuse themselves from pregnant women's healthcare, since abortion is a clinical necessity. Countries which make abortion illegal or inaccessible are invariably* also countries with a far higher maternal mortality/morbidity rate.<br /><br />But I don't support the right of administrators and other support staff who want to make things more difficult for staff who <i>do</i> perform abortions. Which seems to have been the basis for these midwives "conscientious objection" - they wanted to make work more difficult for the staff who <i>were</i> performing abortions, an obligation which they had already excused themselves from.<br /><br />*The frequently-cited exception of course being Ireland, which <a href="http://edinburgheye.wordpress.com/2012/01/27/every-woman-who-needs-an-abortion-should-get-it-on-the-nhs/" rel="nofollow">exports virtually all abortions to mainland UK</a>.EdinburghEyehttp://edinburgheye.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-58037033711937683262012-03-11T09:39:53.534+00:002012-03-11T09:39:53.534+00:00The thing that people also need to bear in mind is...The thing that people also need to bear in mind is that the law around abortion defines what medical assistance can be provided to women to end a pregnancy. <br /><br />If opponents of current abortion laws had their way it would not end abortion. It would just end qualified medical assistance. <br /><br />But you cannot actually stop women aborting unwanted pregnancies, unless you are going to lock them up and keep them under a 24 hour watch. And I think everybody would recognise that is not possible.Indyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04383904151475839441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-66098100747816393212012-03-09T19:50:29.229+00:002012-03-09T19:50:29.229+00:00Wullie,
There are times when abortion in a medica...Wullie,<br /><br />There are times when abortion in a medical necessity. What I object to are people who decide to get one simply because of an unwanted pregnancy.<br /><br />Go and speak to a rape victim - I know one - , and see how they would feel about being denied an abortion because some person decides to use religion as an excuse.<br /><br />What if it is a 13 year old girl, who has been abused by her father?<br /><br />When I talk about abortion in these cases, I mean at a very early stage. But there are also medical reasons for a late abortion.<br /><br />You cannot place a blanket ban on something by generalising, and especially when someone brings religion into the argument.Barbarian of the Northhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09546237341963301419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-90021031673858808842012-03-09T09:55:00.654+00:002012-03-09T09:55:00.654+00:00Barbarian of the North said...
'I am against a...Barbarian of the North said...<br />'I am against abortion for convenience sake - but in favour when there are medical or pyschological (eg rape) reasons for it.'<br /><br /><br />The logic of that escapes me.<br /><br />It's either human life or it's not, there's no half way house. If it's not human life then abort, abort,abort. If it is, don't.<br /><br />If you don't know whether it's human life or not then either err on the side of caution and don't abort, or if that's not expedient at least be honest, say you don't know whether it's human life but you're prepared to take a chance and are going to abort anyway.Groundskeeper Willienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-54415761993958552212012-03-08T21:54:30.865+00:002012-03-08T21:54:30.865+00:00In terms of how you feel about a job your feelings...In terms of how you feel about a job your feelings about what the company does can matter, and can be affected by the degree to which the organisation is involved in something. I worked for many years for a semiconductor company and knew that one of their departments made devices for military use. I felt a bit uncomfortable about it, but it was a very small operation and I was never required to spend any time there - I could put it out of my mind. More recently I applied for a job with what I thought was an IT services company. To my horror a little internet research revealed that they were hugely involved in the US defence industry, most particularly the downright sinister 'Homeland Security'. I declined the interview. If I had taken that job before discovering the company's main line of business, would I have resigned? Back then, as a single parent, it would have been a pretty tough call. I know it's dishonest, but I can somewhat sympathise with these women (without supporting their 'moral' position) who found something which they found distasteful becoming impossible to ignore.Vronskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17797785918817375436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-79323380197897918782012-03-08T20:25:44.509+00:002012-03-08T20:25:44.509+00:00I am against abortion for convenience sake - but i...I am against abortion for convenience sake - but in favour when there are medical or pyschological (eg rape) reasons for it. However, I don't see how my opinion should count, since I am not the person who would undergo the procedure.<br /><br />However, I cannot possibly support these women here. They knew exactly what their job may involved, and to be blunt, if they don't want to do the job then resign and get someone else in.Barbarian of the Northhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09546237341963301419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-89768132052512451402012-03-08T01:38:57.648+00:002012-03-08T01:38:57.648+00:00"Most people would accede to the proposition ...<i>"Most people would accede to the proposition that the profession of midwifery is rather more about delivering healthy babies than assisting at abortions."</i><br /><br />More, sure. But not all. Either do all of the job or make way for someone who will.RevStuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03915111503712807257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-52778615996944487872012-03-07T17:49:29.680+00:002012-03-07T17:49:29.680+00:00RevStu - but your ham-tasting analogy isn't qu...RevStu - but your ham-tasting analogy isn't quite fair. Most people would accede to the proposition that the profession of midwifery is rather more about delivering healthy babies than assisting at abortions. In fact, the perversion of the sworn aims of the medical profession involved in abortion is one of its depressing aspects. "First, do no harm..."Am Firinnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-57603247949424108932012-03-07T06:58:52.967+00:002012-03-07T06:58:52.967+00:00I think they have a perfect right not to have any ...I think they have a perfect right not to have any involvement in abortions if they see that as murder and legally they have that right. But I think the Health Board has fulfilled its obligations in that regard. I actually read the whole judgement to verify that they were not required to have any clinical contact with patients who were in for that procedure and they were not. <br /><br />As far as I can tell they were arguing that because they have a supervisory role - and that involved supervising staff who do have clinical contact with women who are in for abortions - that meant the Health Board was making them have an involvement with abortion.<br /><br />But they applied for those jobs knowing full well that the ward they would be working on would have patients who were in for a termination. <br /><br />Maybe they disagree with having those patients admitted to the labour ward but if they wanted to make the Health Board reconsider that they went about it the wrong way because all a court would consider is whether the Health Board was obeying the law, not whether women who are in for an abortion should be admitted to the same ward as women who are there to give birth.Indyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04383904151475839441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-35351743327238678502012-03-07T01:15:54.320+00:002012-03-07T01:15:54.320+00:00People should not be allowed to shirk certain resp...People should not be allowed to shirk certain responsibilities just because they choose to follow a certain religion.<br /><br />This case was ridiculous. It reminds me of a recent episode of Law & Order: Special Victims Unit, where a doctor was found guilty of neglecting to offer HIV medicine to patients because he didn't believe HIV caused AIDS.<br /><br />These women have the right not to have abortions themselves, but they have no right to impose that choice on others, which in a round-about way is effectively what they are doing here.<br /><br />This is just another example of why I dislike religion and would like to see its grip on the human race disappear.Doug Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15017218581660887134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-29135309663694810892012-03-06T20:56:49.830+00:002012-03-06T20:56:49.830+00:00I think that any profession should be closed to pe...I think that any profession should be closed to people who aren't prepared to actually do it. "No Jewish applicants for this ham-tasting job please" isn't prejudice in my book, just common sense.RevStuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03915111503712807257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-28678068739049720102012-03-06T19:53:01.217+00:002012-03-06T19:53:01.217+00:00The manager who was interviewed about the case on ...The manager who was interviewed about the case on the television said that Lady Smith's ruling was a relief, as the persons who actually were carrying out the abortions needed to know that in the case of difficulties they had support. It seems to me that is something of an admission that the supervisory midwives' involvement WAS essential to the procedure. Lady Smith may be right in law; but I can see, as a Catholic myself, that the proximity of the supervisory midwives to abortions might be much closer than a reasonable conscience could accommodate. And surely, RevStu, you don't think that midwifery should be a profession closed to Catholics?Am Firinnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-16884665383941519742012-03-06T18:39:36.481+00:002012-03-06T18:39:36.481+00:00I can't see they had a case. They did not hav...I can't see they had a case. They did not have any clinical contact with the patients themselves. I think it is perfectly reasonable to say that people should be able to opt out of any clinical contact with patients having an abortion if they have a conscientious objection. But not to say that they should also be able to opt out of any contact with those who are dealing with those patients.Indyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04383904151475839441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-21596078512900812362012-03-06T17:13:20.678+00:002012-03-06T17:13:20.678+00:00It's got nothing to do with "conscience&q...It's got nothing to do with "conscience". The women in question did the job previously, so it's not the principle they're objecting to, but the volume.<br /><br />If you don't agree with aspects of a job, <i>don't apply for that job</i>. It's not like the job was advertised as flower-arranging and then they sprung abortions on them after a week. <br /><br />It's more like a chef getting a job in a steakhouse and then announcing he's only prepared to cook vegan food. To which the only reasonable response is "Get the hell out of the way and let someone who's prepared to accept ALL their responsibilities do it." <br /><br />Approximately 99.999% of all jobs don't involve facilitating abortions in any way whatsoever. Get one of those, ladies.RevStuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03915111503712807257noreply@blogger.com