tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post7624092784234872748..comments2024-03-18T15:05:49.941+00:00Comments on Lallands Peat Worrier: Scottish N(/n)ationalism & class-based politics...Lallands Peat Worrierhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18276270498204697708noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-53745360324222436622012-03-04T20:17:29.858+00:002012-03-04T20:17:29.858+00:00Ah, The C word how terribly unfashionable and brav...Ah, The C word how terribly unfashionable and brave of you to attempt to get to grips with such emotional minefield.LPW- Ya bas'<br /><br />Aff the tap o ma heid some points. <br /><br />1 Is there not a key difference here between the welfare state middle and the private sector middle class in how they view politics and society at large. <br /><br />2 Why do all Glaswegians think they are proles? <br /><br />3 Apart from notable exceptions why are their so very few decent bourgeois novels from Scotland. <br /><br />4 If you a bare legged urchin until the age of 18 and experience all manner of degradations at what point do you become objectively middle class - is this when the first salary is in (paid monthly) and you necking your first glass of Blue Nun?george mackinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01213074320748093158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-19257546677476405782011-06-30T17:30:47.606+01:002011-06-30T17:30:47.606+01:00P.S.
If it is data you are after, I also covered ...P.S.<br /><br />If it is data you are after, I also covered findings from the most recent <a href="http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.com/2011/06/that-latest-independence-poll.html" rel="nofollow">post-Holyrood election poll on independence, earlier this month.</a>Lallands Peat Worrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238432265194046726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-86089087327378822572011-06-30T17:24:21.248+01:002011-06-30T17:24:21.248+01:00john b,
In point of fact, the researchers did ask...john b,<br /><br />In point of fact, the researchers <i>did</i> ask about attitudes to the constitution. While they've only published three sets of slides, collating some of their findings - I anticipate the Scottish Election Study folk will be making more available over the next few weeks and months. I think it is Dr Johns' slides you are after. Links to all of the available data from the Study <a href="http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.com/2011/06/those-scottish-election-study-headlines.html" rel="nofollow">can be found here.</a>Lallands Peat Worrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238432265194046726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-14181270103047653902011-06-30T17:20:17.379+01:002011-06-30T17:20:17.379+01:00Morag Eyrie,
I dare say you'll recall a numbe...Morag Eyrie,<br /><br />I dare say you'll recall a number of the themes (and points) raised here from our previous discussions! I was tempted - but didn't - describe some of these middle class representations as a bizarre sort of Scottish internal "Orientalism". You may an interesting point about the two-headedness of much of this, neatly captured by the all-too-plausible Citizens example you mentioned. By astonishing coincidence, I recently heard this song from Phil Ochs, which very much speaks to the American 1970s version constituency you describe, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw" rel="nofollow">"Love me, I'm a Liberal."</a>Lallands Peat Worrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238432265194046726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-9438776457245765272011-06-30T17:10:02.892+01:002011-06-30T17:10:02.892+01:00That's *absolutely excellent* data.
I wish th...That's *absolutely excellent* data.<br /><br />I wish the same poll had asked the independence question - my belief, honestly held, is that many Unionist Scots vote SNP in Holyrood elections because Labour and the Tories and the LDs are demonstrably disgraceful, but don't actually want Scots independence (see the 2010 UK elections, where Scots votes for pro-Union parties actually rose). If I were a Scots pollster, or poll commissioner (ie "newspaper"), then the correlation between "are you voting SNP" and "do you support Scots independence" would be the most interesting question to ask.john bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13784096180652522939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-13497841796751775462011-06-30T16:00:40.499+01:002011-06-30T16:00:40.499+01:00Peter,
There are a range of ways of reading the d...Peter,<br /><br />There are a range of ways of reading the data - which engage with a further problematic idea - how should "class" be conceived of anyway? As noted, the ABC1 C2DE social grading is based on asserting that "head of household" occupation is an appropriate guide to the class of respondents. Although I was making fun of the middle class Labour voter, and his delusions of his saltiness - you can make a strong case that we experience class in ways that stretch far beyond how many pounds we get in our monthly pay packet. <br /><br />I've largely glossed over these issues here. Certainly, I'd be willing to accept the idea that there is a dominant account of Scottishness, which emphasises an egalitarian tradition. This tradition is, as McCrone himself argues, sufficiently vague to allow a range of folk to identify with it, despite the incompatible definitions and social programmes they might derive from this simple egalitarian rhetoric. In this respect, we are not so different from other parts of the world. Talking to Australian and Irish and Canadian and American friends, many can recognise in their own dominant conceptions of their respective countries, a similar idea. All recognise that such public overtures of classlessness generally sit cheek-by-jowl with economic and social inequalities, paradoxically untroubled by the gap between the two claims.<br /><br />With "class" thinking being rooted in the English Other, disavowed in the National self. While on one reading, you might see this disavowal of class distinction as emancipatory - contrawise, we might argue that the limited ways in which we are able to see and talk about social class in Scotland obscures rather than illuminates its real influence. Sometimes, disavowal can be socially reactionary.Lallands Peat Worrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238432265194046726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-10149694951867108852011-06-29T22:20:45.314+01:002011-06-29T22:20:45.314+01:00Great to see you did write this as you were hoping...Great to see you did write this as you were hoping to! Lots to think about and discuss.<br /><br />One thing that strikes me immediately about the whole representations-of-Scottishness aspect of your post: the *actual* Glasgow working class (as opposed to the jolly mythical version you talk about) is possibly the most reviled population in Scotland. TV shows like The Scheme* (shown UK-wide - unlike the excellent Limmy's Show) are ensuring this attitude travels south also.<br /><br />So I am now thinking that this fetishisation by the middle classes, such as the theatre scene you describe, is analogous to the kind of consumption of African American and "world" music by white middle classes everywhere. Laughing at black comedians, worshipping an acceptably middle-class-sounding black US president, enjoying films about black heroes of the past (hence non-threatening) like Malcolm X, etc., all without ever really challenging a deeply racist system or ones own racism.<br /><br />A little frisson of radical, but watch which way you head home from the Citz, wouldn't want to bump into any NEDS [snigger snigger]!!<br /><br />That's what leaves a bad taste in my mouth about the whole thing.<br /><br />There is much much more to say about this topic and many people who have studied these issues much more thoroughly than me- just what came to me first.<br /><br />* NB: The Scheme isn't set in Glasgow of course. But I'm sure that'll be too fine a point for those watching from outwith Scotland.Morag Eyriehttp://eyrie.typepad.com/morags_eyrie/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-2760978891280117182011-06-29T21:50:11.897+01:002011-06-29T21:50:11.897+01:00So you thinking, Lallands, the concept of 'We&...So you thinking, Lallands, the concept of 'We're aw Jock Tamsons bairns' is not just mythic it is manifest in the Scottish character?<br /><br />Makes sense as until 1707 the high born and the scruffs all lived up the same close in towns like Edinburgh. Artisans/merchants at street level their Lordships and ladies on the first landing, the new professional class on the second and so on up the seven flights or so as more folk were packed into less and less. A very different condition to the high heid yins in London.<br /><br />Its hard not to imagine that as their Lordships jobbies in the gutter mingled with those of the cowherd in a Grassmarket close that familiarity lead if not to contempt but a levelling down of some form.Mad Jock McMadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17088238215251518226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-15332297727487928172011-06-29T20:44:54.968+01:002011-06-29T20:44:54.968+01:00Richard,
Many thanks for that! McNaughtan and I h...Richard,<br /><br />Many thanks for that! McNaughtan and I have clearly haunted a few of the same bars - I can see why you summoned it to mind. Although these bar gentleman don't quite entertain the same false consciousness as the Labour cooncillor sketched - they are undoubtedly cut from similar cloth.Lallands Peat Worrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238432265194046726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-31031099384525637832011-06-29T20:39:11.573+01:002011-06-29T20:39:11.573+01:00Interesting stuff. For some reason, this came to m...Interesting stuff. For some reason, this came to mind while I was reading...<br /><br />http://www.mudcat.org/detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=2677070Richard Thomsonnoreply@blogger.com