tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post6511394121014310383..comments2024-03-28T07:16:39.621+00:00Comments on Lallands Peat Worrier: Assisted Suicide (Scotland) Bill RIPLallands Peat Worrierhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18276270498204697708noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-11472398294214998682015-05-26T17:36:09.519+01:002015-05-26T17:36:09.519+01:00BTW as a scientist licensed under the Animal Exper...BTW as a scientist licensed under the Animal Experimentation Act to perform specific procedures on animals and be responsible for them I was subject to strict conditions and one of them was that any animal under my care who was suffering too much (defined) must be humanely dispatched at the earliest opportunity. I did this even when the animals were part of running experiments and losing them weakened the statistical power of the experiment. Not to do so would have made me liable for a fine of several thousand pounds AND/OR up to 6 months imprisonment. <br /><br />You can and often will be taken to court by the SSPCA for maltreating an animal yet human beings capable of pleading to be allowed to die cannot be treated similarly by their own choice. <br /><br />Thus a mouse in a lab has more right not to suffer than you or I do. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-69747406566398036782015-05-26T17:28:08.867+01:002015-05-26T17:28:08.867+01:00I think the Irish gay marriage referendum shows us...I think the Irish gay marriage referendum shows us which way to go. The religious social conservatives think they are a large majority. They will ignore opinion polls and make our elected representatives feart but only a referendum will prove how wrong they are. I agree it should be on broad principles: I want the Parliament to pass an assisted dying bill in the next parliament. Kind of thing. It can be run contemporaneously with the election next year. <br /><br />If the bill fails I think therefore we need to get a petition up for a referendum. I have confidence in the Scottish public on this issue and we need to show the religious bigots and social conservatives how far behind the public curve they really are. Then anytime they try it on again say wrt abortion or sex ed in schools we can wave the petition result in their faces, with the latest polling and ask if they want to go again. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-78563163215531135002015-05-26T12:07:41.959+01:002015-05-26T12:07:41.959+01:00RevStu:
'He certainly would not, and nor would...RevStu:<br />'He certainly would not, and nor would he accept the killing of an animal for "social convenience".'<br /><br />Agree again. Whitman -<br /><br />'I think I could turn and live with animals, <br />they are so placid and self-contain'd, <br />I stand and look at them long and long.<br /><br />They do not sweat and whine about their condition, <br />They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins, <br />They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God, <br />Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things, <br />Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago, <br />Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth.'Edwin Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05317173893948248954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-1069543357374632292015-05-26T00:00:47.816+01:002015-05-26T00:00:47.816+01:00I'm interested in what Rolfe says about the us...I'm interested in what Rolfe says about the use of anaesthetics for the terminally ill being more common in the past, but that nowadays doctors are less likely to over-use it for fear of being accused of euthanasia.<br /><br />My Dad told me that when his Dad was dying of stomach cancer in the 1960s, and clearly he wasn't going to see out the summer, the pain got so bad that he never left his bed and the nurse was coming regularly to give him shots of morphine. On her last visit she left an extra large dose in a big syringe and told Dad that should he get worse in the night and appear restless, to give him that. So they did. And within a couple of hours he had passed peacefully. I thought that was generally the way the terminally ill were gently eased out of this world.devorgillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11885637866018093933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-17557077006327808672015-05-25T23:49:09.293+01:002015-05-25T23:49:09.293+01:00Margo's bill wasn't just aimed at the term...Margo's bill wasn't just aimed at the terminally ill but those who wanted to end it all because their lives lacked dignity. There are many people with MS whose lives lack dignity. Can you imagine what it is like not being able to wipe your own backside? Day after day? Having somebody else do it for you? Not being able to cook or even feed yourself? Yet most of these individuals soldier on, as do their friends and families. I support the right of people being able to say, 'Enough!' and end it all. But there is something deeply worrying and abhorrent when society starts agreeing that yes, some peoples lives are not worth living, because how different is that from saying that their life is worthless?devorgillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11885637866018093933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-55874942508869411242015-05-25T23:39:14.606+01:002015-05-25T23:39:14.606+01:00My neighbour (and friend) died of motor neurone di...My neighbour (and friend) died of motor neurone disease. It was totally pitiful. She could not swallow, speak, or eat. She communicated through sign language which she'd learned although a hearing person. But she fought it all the way, to the very last minute. She never wanted to die. I guess people are different, but did your grandfather want to be exited by others? I support the right to die, but at what point does it become social convenience?devorgillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11885637866018093933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-33841520199400046772015-05-25T23:33:03.138+01:002015-05-25T23:33:03.138+01:00Maybe a staged approach would work - make it legal...Maybe a staged approach would work - make it legal to help procure and prepare drugs but not to administer them, make it legal to help people to make travel arrangements and accompany them to any foreign jurisdiction where it's legal. Not ideal at all but steps which might win enough support and could help prepare the ground for greater parliamentary acceptance in the future. A referendum may also be an option but whether it would simply be an argy-bargy or a thoughtful debate depends greatly on the quality of the campaign run by the sides in favour and against and the willingness of the media not to treat the issues and arguments in sensationalist or trivial fashion. As the recent Irish referendum campaign on same-sex marriage shows, a public airing of issues with well-made contributions from those who are most personally affected can produce a compassionate and fair response from most of the public. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05377329780194422401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-12906314152922214622015-05-25T20:51:54.112+01:002015-05-25T20:51:54.112+01:00"The right reverend will surely acquiesce to ..."The right reverend will surely acquiesce to the logic that human life and animal life are qualitatively different in all fashionable philosophies and that human life not animal life is sacred, or at least imbued with unique characteristics which make it inherently worth preserving."<br /><br />He certainly would not, and nor would he accept the killing of an animal for "social convenience".RevStuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03915111503712807257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-46262845239462311392015-05-25T20:42:08.026+01:002015-05-25T20:42:08.026+01:00To be fair, the reason they shoot horses in that s...To be fair, the reason they shoot horses in that situation is that medical and surgical treatment of long-bone limb fractures in horses is pretty much always doomed to utter disaster. It's another example of shortening the agony <i>in extremis</i>.<br /><br />If a horse could recover the way a human patient will recover, we'd do it. But they can't. They don't do "bed rest".Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849975010197698907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-24320461232210411862015-05-25T20:21:17.432+01:002015-05-25T20:21:17.432+01:00The right reverend will surely acquiesce to the lo...The right reverend will surely acquiesce to the logic that human life and animal life are qualitatively different in all fashionable philosophies and that human life not animal life is sacred, or at least imbued with unique characteristics which make it inherently worth preserving.<br /><br />My own opinions notwithstanding, it is clear that this is the motivation of the bill's opponents and it is doing the debate a disservice to start out by equating humans to horses wholesale.<br /><br />(I must declare an interest: I have a broken leg and I approve of the fact that they set it in a cast rather than murder me with a bolt gun)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-85854086525430079002015-05-25T19:47:23.161+01:002015-05-25T19:47:23.161+01:00sorry about the typos. Colleague of mine; incline...sorry about the typos. Colleague of mine; inclined to.Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849975010197698907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-23036504551781535932015-05-25T19:45:29.004+01:002015-05-25T19:45:29.004+01:00As a vet, I'm very ambivalent about the whole ...As a vet, I'm very ambivalent about the whole thing. And that's speaking as someone who has administered euthanasia more times than I can possibly remember.<br /><br />Allieviating agony when the patient is <i>in extremis</i> and certainly going to die within minutes or a few hours should never be a problem. It shouldn't be a problem in human medicine either. Anaesthetics are legal - vets use them too, we just up the dose a bit. If the patient is unconscious until the end comes, job done, even if it takes more than the 10 or 15 seconds it would take us to do it.<br /><br />One problem seems to be that while this appears to have been common practice in human medicine in the past, the increasing emphasis on the illegality of euthanasia seems likely to have inhibited the practice. Physicians are unwilling to go that wee bit too far in case they're prosecuted, and as a result may sometimes not be going far enough.<br /><br />The idea that people are being starved and dehydrated to death is utterly abhorrent. If a vet were to do that, we'd be prosecuted for causing unnecessary suffering and struck off quite frankly. Either go with the anaesthesia, even if it brings on the inevitable more quickly, or treat your patient properly with food and water.<br /><br />A colleague of me wrote eloquently about the death of his wife from pancreatic cancer. In the last month all efforts of the Macmillan nurses failed to control her pain. My colleague said he would never have left an animal in that condition, and if it hadn't been for the effect on their children of having their father jailed for killing their mother, he'd have gone for it. That's the sort of circumstance that makes me incline ot support the bill. But having said that, I don't understand why an anaesthetic couldn't be administered, or keep going with the morphine even if the palliative dose turns out to be a fatal dose.<br /><br />It's the further-out situations that concern me. I've seen too many decisions made for social convenience. That's allowable with a pet, it is not acceptable with a relative. And I'm sorry but the safeguards don't look too safe from where I'm sitting. The availability of euthanasia completely alters the dynamic of the physician when dealing with an ultimately terminal situation where the stage of intolerable terminal agony hasn't yet been reached. I'm on the fence, because I see exactly where the medical objections are coming from.Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849975010197698907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-16757658964787743692015-05-25T17:31:49.078+01:002015-05-25T17:31:49.078+01:00'thought ' of course.'thought ' of course. RichardKerleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12251703217452599921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-10990837326860754632015-05-25T17:31:18.558+01:002015-05-25T17:31:18.558+01:00As always well argued; though provoking and probab...As always well argued; though provoking and probably right .<br />There is a wider matter you refer to [ post defeat ] on the possibility of the use of a referendum . <br />That raises some potential fascinating discussion about the possible principled place of referenda in our public decision making . This is regardless whether as veto on the choices of representative democracy [ pending EU ref ? ] or initiative [ as you suggest here ] . Hhmm . chin scratching called for I think RichardKerleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12251703217452599921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-32797230671886375022015-05-25T17:09:46.213+01:002015-05-25T17:09:46.213+01:00Andrew: 'But the same cannot be said for many ...Andrew: 'But the same cannot be said for many of his colleagues whose fingers will be hovering over their voting buttons on Wednesday. This isn't exactly an admirable basis to oppose the legislation, but the impulse is an understandable one for all that.'<br /><br /><br />That impulse will be there for sure, but while I have little faith in politicians in general, the majority of our Holyrood lot did back gay marriage, despite the Holy Willies such as Sootie Stagecoach and Bashir Maan growling on the sidelines.<br /><br />This is a more difficut one, but - agreeing with RevStu for once - having seen too many awful last acts in my time I hope the Bill passes. <br /><br />Wish Margo was here to fight the corner. A great loss to Scotland.<br /><br /><br />Edwin Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05317173893948248954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-20264011708083654162015-05-25T14:18:17.049+01:002015-05-25T14:18:17.049+01:00I support the assisted suicide bill. I wonder if t...I support the assisted suicide bill. I wonder if those against would feel differently if they had a relative or friend who was suffering needlessly. Having seen my grandpa irreversibly waste away from a muscle-degenerative disease, I know the pain, both physical and mental (the loss of autonomy and independence etc) that people are subjected to by disease. Towards the end of his life, he was completely dependent, bedridden, and unable to enjoy the things he once had. Even eating had become a stuggle, as well as watching tv, having conversations etc. He was no longer the intelligent, witty, warm grandfather I had once known but was almost a ghost. It was heartbreaking, and for me it's impossible to see how extending his pain could be considered compassionate.Eilidhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10793681003320318365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-51339610092504590472015-05-25T13:06:33.928+01:002015-05-25T13:06:33.928+01:00The objections to assisted suicide are among the m...The objections to assisted suicide are among the most illogical and inhuman arguments ever made in the name of politics. We permit the end of suffering in "lower" species while still safeguarding animals against being killed needlessly. Is it really beyond our wit to extend the same principles to ourselves? What are the real reasons that our legislators resist this basic act of compassion and decency? RevStuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03915111503712807257noreply@blogger.com