tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post5791697034670207425..comments2024-03-28T07:16:39.621+00:00Comments on Lallands Peat Worrier: MacWhirter's legal bunkum on sectarianism...Lallands Peat Worrierhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18276270498204697708noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-47478939530048753422011-05-30T14:38:40.143+01:002011-05-30T14:38:40.143+01:00Almax
Thanks for the clarification, although I be...Almax<br /><br />Thanks for the clarification, although I believe I had done you a disservice with pigeon-holing your views pretty much as soon as I had responded.<br /><br />Republicans songs may well be offensive to some people (I'd suggest that the motivations why are questionable) but cannot be made illegal. Unless we intend in Scotland to outlaw Ireland, just a thought ;¬)<br /><br />Anyhow why do we automatically view political views as direct opposite to quasi-religious hate views? As in the question of proving religous aggravation on the part of attacking Lennon. Surely anyone attempting to associate someone shouting 'up the ra' would have an impossible task in somehow associating this with an attack on the Protestant community.<br /><br /> Such was the erroneous accusation by the latest BBC documentary. The same enduring thread that has charachterised Scotland was there for all to see in this programme. The blame must not fall on those responsible without delivering equal blame to Celtic and their fans. These attempts often go to the ridiculous, none more so than well meaning folk (a minority admittedly) somehow believing that Catholic schools are somehow to blame.Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-46526833388640262132011-05-30T09:28:49.646+01:002011-05-30T09:28:49.646+01:00Tony
I wasn't seeking 'equivalance for ant...Tony<br />I wasn't seeking 'equivalance for anti-Catholicism' - I was merely pointing out the difficulty for Holyrood in making "up to our knees etc" punishable by 5 years imprisonment while viewing 'Oo-Ah Up The Ra' as inoffensive and non-sectarian. Whatever you or I think about the relative merits of the 2 songs, it is quite a difficult feat to legislate one out of existence while leaving the other untouched.<br /><br />And neither was I coming out with 'the auld shite' about Neil Lennon bringing it on himself (a view which I vehemently disagree with) - my point is that people assault other people for a host of reasons - if you are going to impose a heavier penalty where the assault is aggravated by religious prejudice then you really have to prove that. Or do you want there to be a presumption that offences against Roman Catholics are always motivated by religious prejudice?almaxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-35794289542999497542011-05-29T21:08:03.548+01:002011-05-29T21:08:03.548+01:00>>...I would have thought that the task of t...>>...I would have thought that the task of the legislature was not made any easier by the recent judicial decision that singing songs in support of the IRA did not constitute the 'religious prejudice' aggravation, apparently on the basis that the IRA 'is not sectarian in intent' (according to the Sheriff)-<<<br /><br />Are you suggesting it is? Absolutely bizzare this desire that exists in Scotland to seek equivilance for anti-Catholicism where none exists. <br /><br />Oh and the auld shite about Neil lennon bringing it on himself and not being attacked primarily because of his Irishness or Catholicism. Only serves to prolong the process that is so obviously needed.Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-53602765269717850812011-05-27T09:49:43.870+01:002011-05-27T09:49:43.870+01:00almax,
I'm naturally interested in that view....almax,<br /><br />I'm naturally interested in that view. Certainly, the scribbled text might contain something relevant - no doubt we'll only hear about it if the Procurator Fiscal proceed against him. Many thanks, also, for that link. Somehow, I'd missed that report. It does take us into the sort of bizarre interpretative territory I discussed in my previous post. In the "Famine Song" case <a href="http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2009HCJAC59.html" rel="nofollow"><i>(William Walls v. Procurator Fiscal Kilmarnock)</i></a>, the High Court showed little patience (and a rather blunt construction) of "Fenians", impatiently batting aside Findlay QC's historical argument. <br /><br />You are certainly right that there is a risk here of purporting to make windows into men's souls, without any evidence of the whys and wherefores of people's conduct. There are, I suppose, many reasons why a fool might assault Neil Lennon - and I'm sure we both agree that if aggravations are to be applied, the law must advance on the basis of evidence, rather than naked supposition and conjecture based on some known aspect of the complainer's identity.<br /><br />Stuart,<br /><br />As yet, I haven't caught Newsnicht this week, partly to avoid seeing MacAskill's "car crash" performance on this very topic. While Bateman perhaps overstates his case just a tad, it is certainly true to say that our Common Law retains a suppleness and breadth that is unusual and of which much of the population is singularly unaware. That, in itself, is an interesting disjuncture in what socio-legal scholars would call our <i>"legal consciousness narratives"</i>, the stories we tell ourselves and ideas we entertain about the nature and quality of the law. An interesting and under researched issue in Scotland, that.Lallands Peat Worrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238432265194046726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-25936701993446203262011-05-27T09:31:39.715+01:002011-05-27T09:31:39.715+01:00Anonymous,
I admit, I haven't yet got around ...Anonymous,<br /><br />I admit, I haven't yet got around to reading that Supreme Court judgment, nor considering its reasoning. If I have any notable thoughts on the topic, I'm likely to visit them here.<br /><br />James,<br /><br />Egad, are you implying some sort of equivalence? Scandalous! ;-)<br /><br />Scottish Republic,<br /><br />To send someone a bomb is criminal already. <a href="http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.com/2011/05/against-criminalising-bigotry-peddled.html" rel="nofollow">As I've noted elsewhere,</a> uttering threats is also criminal - and to put it on a statutory footing certainly isn't immediately necessary, but nor is it a radical departure from the current law. As a result, I struggle to see why criminalising something <i>else</i> is a rational response to a problem, which is already criminalised. I don't want to minimise the issue of Sectarianism - clearly if people are being persecuted by threatening packages, that is intolerable. However, it is crucial, I think, not to get muddled up on this. We'll have to wait for the full text of the Bill, but the proposal as it is presently mooted goes well beyond the issue of threats of violence.Lallands Peat Worrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238432265194046726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-73709160554926363502011-05-27T08:33:49.557+01:002011-05-27T08:33:49.557+01:00Hi LPW
In a similar vein, don't know if you s...Hi LPW<br /><br />In a similar vein, don't know if you saw it, but on last night's Newsnicht in Derek Bateman's piece on sectarianism he said something like "Scots common law already covers virtually every other imaginable offence, punishable by up to life imprisonment".Stuart Wintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02772436419630464325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-42542725068143914062011-05-27T01:25:03.088+01:002011-05-27T01:25:03.088+01:00In relation to the Stirling student, I agree with ...In relation to the Stirling student, I agree with you that there's nothing in the visible part of the image that indicates religious prejudice. Of course it may be that something in the redacted text supports that aggravation, but we'll have to wait to find out about that.<br /><br />Similarly, if you view the incident involving the Hearts nutter and Neil Lennon at Tynecastle recently, there is absolutely nothing in the video film that even hints at the action being aggravated by religious prejudice. Of course, the nutter may have said something that constitutes the aggravation, and again we'll have to wait to see what the whole evidence is.......<br /><br />....but I rather fear that it is possible that both the police and the prosecutors may have jumped to the conclusion that an attack by word or deed upon Neil Lennon is, of itself, evidence of religious prejudice......<br /><br />.....and if there has been such a jumping to conclusion, then it is not only highly unwelcome, but it perhaps indicates a sort of reverse prejudice in operation whereby in certain circumstances the religion of the victim becomes a factor even when it's not a factor.<br /><br /><br />I'm afraid I cannot assist you in your quest to discover what the media mean by 'sectarian hate crimes', but I would have thought that the task of the legislature was not made any easier by the recent judicial decision that singing songs in support of the IRA did not constitute the 'religious prejudice' aggravation, apparently on the basis that the IRA 'is not sectarian in intent' (according to the Sheriff)-<br /><br />http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Sheriff-right-to-dismiss-case.6742770.jpalmaxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-42958895079022953472011-05-26T20:37:51.586+01:002011-05-26T20:37:51.586+01:00Nice article.
It is possible Mcwhirter read it an...Nice article.<br /><br />It is possible Mcwhirter read it and chose to not understand it.<br /><br />The fact that we've come to this juncture is sad but necessary. Bombs, threats, what a bunch of w*****s. <br /><br />Still, there it is.Scottish republicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-6774727863639568222011-05-26T16:43:46.000+01:002011-05-26T16:43:46.000+01:00My 2c
http://lefthooked.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/...My 2c<br /><br />http://lefthooked.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/the-cairo-herald-writes/James Dolemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16774046346905734191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1638916042737526171.post-57152452641697440252011-05-26T15:47:47.644+01:002011-05-26T15:47:47.644+01:00Like to hear what you have to say about the Nat Fr...Like to hear what you have to say about the Nat Fraser case, troubling I'd sayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com